Vaccination Debate: An example of intelligent conversation, finally!

“Formerly, when religion was strong and science weak, men mistook magic for medicine; now, when science is strong and religion weak, men mistake medicine for magic.”
Thomas Szasz

Finally, I have initiated some well-researched, intelligent debate on the hot topic of vaccination – i.e. folks who don’t hold “medical expertise” to their hearts so dear that any critical comment causes them to lash out unreasonably, have started discussing this here.   I know it is on the topic of the “sociology of medicine” much more so than the “sociology of psychiatry”, but it is a beautiful demonstration of the conversation that can be generated when a community of critical thinkers is formed on the Internet – different perspectives can be discussed openly, without anyone shouting words that hint at frightening dogmatism that deny the central premises of “science”.  Here is part of that conversation – a huge thank-you to all who participated!

Comment 1: I would be interested to hear your take on the epidemic in California surrounding Pertussis or Whooping Cough. Many doctors and nurses that I’ve talked to, informally, seem to blame it on parents not getting vaccinations. An ER nurse told me that she in the past would see 1-2 cases a month. She saw 16 this week. What are your thoughts? Thanks!

Scars’ Reply:

Wow! I hadn’t heard about this. Pertussis is one of the vaccines I believe children should get – the vaccine has been around for well over 30 years, does not contain the additives that “new” vaccines do, and has shown itself not to manifest in any longitudinal medical problems among the general population. However, I am also interested in the fact that since these vaccines have been around for so long, children aren’t building up natural immunities, and just like the overuse of antibiotics caused “superbugs”, over-vaccination may cause “super-viruses”, so to speak.

Has this taken place in a particular community in California, where us west coasters would be prone not to vaccinating their children? Some kind of survey would have to be conducted to find out if not vaccinating children could be the root cause, and even then a direct correlation would not be able to be made – I suppose if doctors and nurses are saying that they’ve struggled with parents over this issue, it is fairly common, but still – by nature of their jobs they come from a slightly biased stance (ex/ the socialization that they undergo during med school, which promotes all things pharma, especially NEW things pharma, and belittles other approaches to an amazing degree – I’ve heard this from several med students, and seen it reflected in the behaviour of younger doctors).

Here in Vancouver, there have been several recent cases of measles, actually. The unfortunate thing about how dogmatic people on both the “pro” and “anti” vaccination sides of the debate are, is that it doesn’t lend the situation to being properly researched – the information available, in the format of reasonable points from each side – aside from that Frontline documentary – resembles the nonsense of an episode of Bill O’Reilly! However, through conversations like these we can explore this issue deeper, and with open minds.

I am trying to get a copy of my own immunization record (I was born in the early 80s) to compare it to the charts/pamphlets of “recommended” vaccines for all children today. What worries me most are influenza vaccines – it is recommended that children get their first at 2 months now. This does not make sense to me. I had a few incredibly horrible flues as a child, but got through them, and had developed immunities against them by the time I was a teenager (i.e. I haven’t had a flu with a fever and puking since then). I will write a post as soon as I obtain this info – as I do believe that measles/mumps/rubella/pertussis/tetanus and a few other shots should be given to kids, for common sense reasons. The number of “boosters” required seems to have increased quite suspiciously though…

Let’s keep this conversation going – exactly what I was hoping to get out of this post.
Cheers!
scars

Comment 2:

As far as I know there has yet to be a study as to why this is happening. All the doctors and nurses made that clear but seemed convinced it was because parents weren’t vaccinating.

Thanks for writing about your opinion of which vaccines are safe. We are getting our daughter fully vaccinated, but she recently contracted pertussis. I guess I worry that parents are simply hearing “vaccinations are bad so I won’t get any” without doing any research of their own. Does that make sense?

I haven’t seen specific communities but the nurse I talked with is located in Orange County.

Comment 3:

I always find it interesting that so called “evidence-based medicine” believers jump immediately to conclusions based on no evidence at all, simply to confirm their own belief systems (and, being just as human as everyone else, what else could one expect?).

If one is going to say not getting vaccinated has caused some epidemic, then one might as well say not having a dog causes pet over-population. It doesn’t follow — no matter how “scientific” the language used, or how forceful the “logic”.

It’s precisely because no one is allowed to really delve into questions about how well medical products REALLY work (without being burned as a heretic, or cast as standing in the shadows of some form of insanity), that these things become unsafe. Then, when they become more and more unsafe, and people start to avoid them as worse than the thing they are supposed to “cure” or “protect” against, then more “witch-burning” starts (and how quickly are witch-burners and the like to accuse others of baby-killing and the like?)

Has anyone checked out the living and other health conditions these children are living in (including what kinds of toxic medical products they’ve been introduced to)?

Has anyone considered that diseases — like every other population of anything on the planet — do and will simply ebb and flow, depending on circumstances we sometimes have no control over?

Has anyone really looked at whether the whooping vaccine actually works, and is not simply presumed to work because of something else ignored?

There’s a lot more going on here than simply not getting a jab of medical product.

Scars’ Reply:

You’re absolutely correct and make a very important point. As a medical researcher – albeit a qualitative, not a quantitative one (as if the latter is any less valid than the former ) – I cringe every time a ridiculously spurious correlation is made, yet again! Damn, one of the first things I remember learning in first year university was that “CORRELATION DOES NOT EQUAL CAUSATION”. It is like saying that a “large crane population” in a particular area, and a “sudden surge of pregnant women” is connected.

I can’t say enough about toxic products myself – you might be interested in reading “Flora”’s message on the commentroll from last weekend and my response. She doesn’t use ultra-lysol-magic-erasers and the like (now, with Febreze!) and most of her son’s friends – who seem unusually “clean” – have huge problems with allergies, and a lack of natural immunity to a whole lot of what goes around.

Again like you say, though, burn the witches! In my undergrad thesis – in the academic work section if you ever feel like a long, somewhat dry read hehe – I compare the labeling of women with disorders like “Borderline Personality Disorder” to the witch trials. I.e. You do not fit into the mainstream, your behaviour is for some reason against the grain, thus, you shall be punished, via psychiatrization, or in this case, certain parents being blamed for an “epidemic”.

…and how exactly are we defining “epidemic” now? Are a few, or even several, cases of a disease that hasn’t been seen in the general populace for some time now considered to be an “epidemic”? If that is so, the definition of “epidemic” has changed since I learned about epidemics – ya know, like the black plague and the flu of 1917 and what not…outbreaks that killed millions of people…

Keep up the conversation, all – I’ve been waiting to hear some real debate about this for a long, long time!

Cheers!
scars

Scars’ Reply:

Yes, that makes perfect sense – parents saying, “vaccinations are bad” just because they heard it on TV or from a friend, are not doing their “argument”, or society any favour, nor are they presenting a valid challenge to the hegemonic industry of medicine. Hearsay is to research as cats are to airplanes.

My absolute firmest advice on this topic is do your own research! If one is truly concerned about their child’s safety, one can take the time to do some real research on vaccines – not so hard with the Internet! One can check out various medical journals online, weary of propagandistic material coming from either side of the debate. One can get the opinion of a few different doctors – my GP here in Vancouver is very against over-vaccination and the overuse of antibiotics, and has great evidence to back up her perspectives. However, like me, she does think some vaccines are good and necessary. She discouraged me from getting Hepatitis vaccines before traveling to South America, due to the fact that I reacted badly to one in the past, and that she didn’t think it was necessary, based on “risk” of contracting Hepatitis south of the equator. My former doctor at my university campus came from a different perspective – she was a strong advocate for the H1N1 vaccine. She drove me home once and I asked her to explain her opinion, and it just didn’t make sense to me, but these are very personal decisions.

Actually, I would really like to hear my current GP’s perspective on the pertussis situation in Orange County – I will ask her about it next time I see her! Won’t be until July, but I will definitely discuss it with her!

Best Wishes,
scars

Comment 5:

Two other things never (allowed to be truly) considered by the mainstream medical model:

First, not everyone is going to react the same to everything. Some people are going to be more sensitive to some things, and some people not. That’s not hocus pocus – it’s evolutionary understanding. Modern science recognizes it in germs – 1st semester microbiology makes sure we understand that when confronted with a new toxin, some germs die and others live. But when it comes to people, the modern medical model doesn’t want to hear it. And that’s another reason it’s become so dangerous and causes so much damage. Just because one person is susceptible to whooping cough doesn’t mean everyone will be, and just because one person doesn’t have (or visibly SHOW) bad reactions to vaccine medical products doesn’t mean everyone is safe with them.

Second, research time and time again shows that children/teens and the elderly are absolutely more sensitive to all sorts of things – including toxins as are put into modern vaccines, and including drugs (including psych drugs). Yet what little research is done is usually done on healthy adults, while most medical toxins in vaccines and drugs are given to children/teens and old people.

More reasons modern M.D. medicine (and all the “alternative” medicines that so quickly seek to become “healthier” versions of M.D. medicine) have become so unsafe. Does M.D. medicine HAVE to be unsafe? Absolutely not. But today, where money and power and control are more important to providers and manufacturers than (truly) healthy patients, that’s what we’ve gotten.

Have any of you read “Death by Medicine”. It can be found all over the web – here’s the first PDF version Google found: http://www.webdc.com/pdfs/deathbymedicine.pdf

If you haven’t read it, you should!

Scars’ Reply:

Again, PRECISELY. Would you mind if I post this comment on the main page? Or would you like to post it yourself as a “guest post”?

A HUGE problem in the fields of both medicine and psychology/psychiatry, is that they have absolutely no knowledge of the history of their disciplines. All that is taught is the last 5 – 10 (if one is lucky!) years of “progress”. Thus, those lessons taught in undergrad biology classes are fast forgotten. My own undergrad bio classes were held in a special department called “biology and human concerns” – so I suppose I’m especially sensitive when people start ranting at me about the usefulness of “SHELL VIRUSES!” in vaccines. Yeah, uh-huh, I’m well aware of how vaccines function. But I’m also aware of vaccines are manufactured, and how they are tested!

I am reminded of my critical studies on the use of the fMRI to diagnose “mental illness” – my research deals particular with infants/children, but there is a wonderful book called Picturing Personhood that describes how clinical trials are conducted, re: fMRI, but others as well – solely on ADULT, WHITE MALES. How any researcher of “sound mind”, or possessing any sense of ethics whatsoever, can call this a representative, generalizable, valid study is beyond me, and incredibly frightening.

I have not read that book, but I wouldn’t be surprised if my partner has a copy on the shelf. Otherwise, I’ll check it out online right away, and likely post it on the blog. I also highly recommend Selling Sickness. In fact, I think I will add it to the “recommended readings” list right now.

Cheers!

Comment 6:

First, feel free to post as you with. I’m not copyrighted

Second, the “Death by Medicine” is actually just a short data study – not a book. Several NDs and (I think?) 1 MD took a real look at AMA data and discovered that doctors/MD medicine actually causes more harm today than heart disease and cancer. Fascinating.

Scars’ Reply:

I’ve heard this, too! Medical negligence causes far more deaths. Recently, when I had surgery on my left ovary, it made me feel really “safe” when the nurse made a huge sharpie-marker cross on my left abdomen, indicating “this one!” Not to mention infections in hospitals – when my partner, Alarryk was in the hospital here for two weeks in November, he caught a “super” staph infection that has left huge scars all over his left leg, which he could hardly move for some time.

I’m getting excited about the news out of Toronto about the G-20 protests right now, but I shall be posting our discussion shortly.

*HUGE SIGH OF RELIEF*

So, there are many reasonable folks out there willing to discuss this topic without sending personal insults my way.

Now, let’s get the conversation

on the topic of psychiatry going!